why r u praying 2 Mary: 2013

Monday, January 28, 2013

The Woman of Revelation 12

Lutero said:

2 Roman Catholic scholars comment on Revelation 12 as being about Mary.

As you will see the facts of Scriptures don't fit for it being about Mary.Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):“a woman: Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation.

For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.”
One of the problems you have with your analysis is that none of the apostles teach what you claim. No apostle claims that Mary had a crown of 12 stars. The other problem is the to have pain in childbirth was part of the curse that God gave because of sin. Now if Mary was sinless then she would not have felt the pain of childbirth as verse 2 says.

My Response:

Lutero:

2 Roman Catholic scholars comment on Revelation 12 as being about Mary. As you will see the facts of Scriptures don't fit for it being about Mary.Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):“a woman: Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church;

Lutero, the key word here is "most". Most does not mean "all".

in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

This statement is representative of the Protestant mindset of "either/or". The Catholic Church has never maintained that this is about either the Church or Mary. The Catholic Church has always known it is about Mary and about the Church and about Israel.

But the person whom it fits more closely and perfectly is Mary. Because Mary is a Woman and Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. And the Woman of Rev 12 fits that description perfectly.

Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.
In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2),

Anyone reading Rev 12 can see that the ideas represented there are symbolic. To what do the symbols of birth pains refer in the context of Mary? To the prophecy of Simeon:

Luke 2:35

(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

to the fact that she would have to suffer the flight to Egypt to save her Son.

to the fact that she would have to suffer the sight of her Son being persecuted and killed by the Jews.

that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.),

She was. She had to flee to Egypt, Egypt is in a desert.

or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17).

Through her other Spiritual Children who would be martyred for the name of Christ:

Revelation 12:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God.

Except for one thing. The Church did not give birth to Christ. The Church is the mother of Christians. But not of Christ. The most direct correlation to that aspect of the prophecy remains MARY OF NAZARETH, the Mother of God.

Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.”

And that is part of the interpretation of the Catholic Church. But the most explicit interpretation is that the Woman is Mary.

One of the problems you have with your analysis is that none of the apostles teach what you claim. No apostle claims that Mary had a crown of 12 stars.

St. John did. Rev 12:1

The other problem is the to have pain in childbirth was part of the curse that God gave because of sin.

That is not our problem but yours. Look at Rev 12. Look at the birth of the Child. Is that Child, Jesus Christ? Did Jesus Christ ascend as an infant or after the Resurrection? Did Jesus Christ ascend to His Throne when He was not even a minute old or when He was thirty three years old?

Why, if 99% of the writing in that chapter is symbolic, do you expect the verses concerning Mary to be absolutely literal? The answer is simple. Because you don't want to know the truth.

But you are only deceiving yourself.

Now if Mary was sinless then she would not have felt the pain of childbirth as verse 2 says.

Mary was sinless and the pains of childbirth depicted in Rev 12 are symbolic references to the emotional suffering which Mary had to undergo as a result of her vocation as the Mother of our Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

12 comments:

AnonymousFebruary 8, 2013 at 3:56 PM

Where does John mention Mary by name in rev 12?
2badly, where in the gospel accounts does it mention Mary`s birth pains as "the emotional sufferings she had to undergo as a result of her vocation as the mother of Christ"?

Where in Scripture does it say that she had "spiritual children"?
Reply
De MariaFebruary 9, 2013 at 12:45 AM

AnonymousFebruary 8, 2013 at 3:56 PM
Where does John mention Mary by name in rev 12?
2badly, where in the gospel accounts does it mention Mary`s birth pains as "the emotional sufferings she had to undergo as a result of her vocation as the mother of Christ"?

These things are spiritually discerned. For instance, have you not realized that the Book of Revelations is not written as to be understood literally?

If you do, then why do you claim that the Woman of Revelations is the Church? Is the Church a human woman?

These are very simple matters. But your mind has been darkened in order that you not come to the truth. You need to pray for understanding from God. Not like the Pharisees.

Where in Scripture does it say that she had "spiritual children"?

As for spiritual children, have you not read in Scripture?

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

I'm really happy that you make these points. They illustrate in a more profound manner than I could ever explain, how spiritually deprived is the theology of the Protestants.
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AnonymousFebruary 9, 2013 at 3:45 PM

Your answer that the woman of rev 12 is arrived at by spiritual discernment is disingenuous. The only way to answer the question is by looking at the text itself which does not mention the name of the woman. No doubt it is a metaphor for something. That's why we need to look at the surrounding verses to determine what John means. Rd scholars make a better case for it being the church or Israel than for Mary.

I Corinthians 4:15 has nothing to do with her being our spiritual mother. Paul is making the point to the Corinthians that he is the one who brought them the gospel to believe in and do he in a spiritual sense is their father.

You are reading into the texts rd theology. Do your commentaries support your conclusions about these texts being about Mary?
Reply
De MariaFebruary 9, 2013 at 4:02 PM

AnonymousFebruary 9, 2013 at 3:45 PM
Your answer that the woman of rev 12 is arrived at by spiritual discernment is disingenuous. The only way to answer the question is by looking at the text itself which does not mention the name of the woman.

It doesn't need to. The only Woman who is mother of the Christ is Mary. There is no other mother of the Christ. Only Mary.

Or do you know about another woman who is mother of Christ?

No doubt it is a metaphor for something.

Primarily a metaphor for Mary. Then for the Church and then for the nation of Israel.

That's why we need to look at the surrounding verses to determine what John means.

Already did that. Is this another Anonymous or is this still Bob? If you are Bob, then we have already gone through the text together. More than once.

Rd scholars make a better case for it being the church or Israel than for Mary.

No. The best case is Mary.

I Corinthians 4:15 has nothing to do with her being our spiritual mother.

The Biblical principal of spiritual relationship is there confirmed.

Paul is making the point to the Corinthians that he is the one who brought them the gospel to believe in and do he in a spiritual sense is their father.

And I am making the point that Mary is the mother of the Body of Christ and therefore the spiritual mother of the Church. And the Church is the Body of Christ and we are all members thereof, therefore she is our spiritual mother.

You are reading into the texts rd theology.

It is you who are committing that error.

Do your commentaries support your conclusions about these texts being about Mary?

Yes.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=385115
Reply
AnonymousFebruary 10, 2013 at 5:19 PM

I Corinthians 4:15 says nothing about Mary being someone's spiritual mother. Mary is never referred to as the "mother of the Body of Christ". She was never referred to as such for centuries. It was totally unknown. This is an example of you twisting the Scripture to say what it is not saying.

So you have some RC's that say Mary is the woman of Rev 12 and some that do not. 2 well known RC scholars don't--Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary
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AnonymousFebruary 16, 2013 at 4:59 PM

Again we see more unprovable assumptions on the supposed assumption of Mary. Here is what I am talking about: "all the while being Divinely led by the Holy Spirit in this illumination." He is assuming this and not proving this to be the case at all.

I think this is false and unbiblical.
Reply
De MariaFebruary 16, 2013 at 6:14 PM

AnonymousFebruary 16, 2013 at 4:59 PM
Again we see more unprovable assumptions on the supposed assumption of Mary. Here is what I am talking about: "all the while being Divinely led by the Holy Spirit in this illumination." He is assuming this and not proving this to be the case at all.

I think this is false and unbiblical.

So, you don't agree with Fr. Brown? That is my point. Fr. Brown believes all the same Doctrines I believe. He can;t find them in Scripture.

But I can. And I have shown you that they are completely in line with Scripture. There is far more evidence for any Catholic Doctrine from Scripture than there is for any Protestant doctrine which disagrees with Catholicism.
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Thursday, February 21, 2013

Roman Catholic scholars comment on Revelation 12 as being about Mary

Monday, January 28, 2013

The Woman of Revelation 12

12 comments: